THE DEBATE took place in August, 1981, in Durban, South Africa  

THE TOPIC was the question: Was Christ crucified?  

THE PARTICIPANTS were Josh McDowell and Ahmed Deedat, the president of the Islamic Propagation Centre in Durban, South Africa.  

The debate, a transcript of which appears on the following pages, was divided into three parts:   Opening arguments, 50 minutes. Rebuttals by each, 10 minutes. Closing statements, 3 minutes.

TRANSCRIPT OF THE DEBATE

OPENING ARGUMENTS

# Ahmed Deedat

Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen. On the subject of
crucifixion, the Muslim is told in no uncertain terms, in
the Holy Qur’an, the last and final revelation of God, that
they didn’t kill Him, nor did they crucify Him. But it was
made to appear to them so. And those who dispute therein,
are full of doubts. They have no certain knowledge; they
only follow conjecture, guesswork. For of a surety, they
killed Him not.

Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen. Could anyone have
been more explicit, more dogmatic, more uncompromising, in
stating a belief than this? The only one who was entitled to
say such words is the all-knowing, omniscient Lord of the
universe.

The Muslim believes this authoritative statement as the
veritable Word of God. And as such, he asks no questions,
and he demands no proof. He says, “There are the words of my
Lord; I believe, and I affirm.” But the Christian responds
in the words of our honorable guest. In his book, Josh
McDowell with Don Stewart in “Answers to tough Questions” on
pages 116 and 117, states the Christian’s attitude toward
this uncompromising statement of the Muslim. He says, “A
major problem with accepting Mohammed’s account is that his
testimony is 600 years after the event occurred, while the
New Testament contains eyewitness, or first hand, testimony
of the life and mini- stry of Jesus Christ.” In a nutshell,
the Christian asks how can a man a thousand miles away from
the scene of the happening of the crucifixion and 600 years
in time away from the happening know what happened in
Jerusalem? The Muslim responds that these are the words of
God Almighty. And therefore, as such, God knew what had
happened. The Christian naturally reasons that, had he
accepted this book, the Qur’an, as the Word of God, there
would have been no dispute between us. We would all have
been Muslims!

We have eyewitness and earwitness accounts of these
happenings which are stated for us in the Holy Bible, more
especially in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
Now, the implication of this crucifixion is this: it is
alleged that Jesus Christ was murdered by the Jews by means
of crucifixion 2,000 years ago, And as such, the Jews are
guilty of the murder of Jesus Christ. We Muslims are told
that they are innocent because Christ was not killed, nor
was He crucified, And as such, I am given the [mandate] by
the Holy Qur’an to defend the Jews against the Christian
charge. I’m going to defend the Jews this afternoon, not
because they are my cousins, but simply because justice must
he done. We have our points of difference with the Jews –
that is a different question altogether. This afternoon, I
will try my very best to do justice to my cousins, the Jews.

Now, in this argument, this debate, this dialogue, I am
actually the defense counsel for the Jews, and Josh McDowell
is the prosecuting counsel. And you, ladies and gentlemen,
are the ladies and gentlemen of the jury. I want you to sit
back, relax and at the end of this, give judgment to
yourself, to your own conscience whether the Jews are guilty
or not of the charge as alleged by the Christians.

Now, to get to the point, as the defense counsel for the
Jews, I could have had this case against the Jews dismissed
in just two minutes – in any court of law, in any civilized
country in the world, simply by demanding from the
prosecuting counsel the testimonies of these witnesses,
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, And when they are pre- sented,
in the form of sworn affidavits, as we have them in the
gospels, I could say that, in their original, they are not
attested. And the proof – you get any authorized King James
Version of the Bible, and you’ll find each and every
affidavit begins: “The Gospel according to St. Matthew, the
Gospel according to St. Mark, the Gospel according to St.
Luke, the Gospel according to St. John.” I’m asking, ladies
and gentlemen of the jury, what is this “according …
according … according”? Do you know what it means? It
means Matthew, Mark, Luke and John didn’t sign their names.
It is only assumed that these are their work. And as such,
in any court of law, in any civilized country, they would be
thrown out of court in just two minutes.

Not only that, I can have this case dismissed TWICE in
two minutes in any court of law in any civilized country. I
said twice because one of the testators in the Gospel of St.
Mark, chapter 14, verse 50, tells us that at the most
critical juncture in the life of Jesus, all His disciples
forsook Him, and fled. ALL. If they were not there, the
testimony of those who were not there to witness what
happened will be thrown out of court. I said, twice in two
minutes, in just 120 seconds flat, the case would be over.
In any court of law. in any civilized country in the world.

But where is the fun of it? You have come a long way
from far and wide, after all the threatening rains. And now,
if we say the case is closed and go home, where is the fun
of it? To entertain you, I will accept those documents as
valid, for the sake of this dialogue, and we are now going
to put these witnesses into the box for cross-examination.
And I want you to see where the truth lies.

The first witness that I’m going to call, happens to be
St. Luke. And St. Luke has been described by Christian
authorities as one of the greatest historians. As a
historical book, the Gospel of St. Luke is unique. Now, we
get St. Luke. chapter 24. verse 36. I’m going to tell you
what he has said – what he has written in black and white.
He tells us that it was Sunday evening, the first day of the
week, when Jesus Christ walked into that upper room, the one
in which He had the Last Supper with His disciples. This is
three days after His alleged crucifixion. He goes in, and He
wishes His disciples, “Peace be unto you.” And when He said,
“Peace be unto you,” His disciples were terrified. Is that
true? We’re asking you. I would like to ask Him, why were
the disciples terrified? Because when one meets his
long-lost master, his grandfather, his guru, his Rabbi – we
Eastern people embrace one another; we kiss one another. Why
should His disciples be terrified? So Luke tells us they
were frightened, because they thought He was a spirit.

I’m only quoting what he said. And you can verify in
your own Bible at home. They were frightened, they were
terrified because they thought He was a spirit. I’m asking
Luke, did He look like a spirit? And he says no. I’m asking
all the Christians of the world again and again, of every
church and denomination, this master of yours, did He look
like a spirit? And they all say no. Then I say, why should
they think that man is a spirit when He didn’t look like
one? And everyone is puzzled – unless Josh can explain.
Every Christian is puzzled. Why should they think the man is
a spirit when He didn’t look like one? I will tell you. The
reason is because the disciples of Jesus had heard from
hearsay that the Master was hanged on the cross. They had
heard, from hearsay, that He had given up the ghost. In
other words. His spirit had come out: He had died. They had
heard from hearsay that He was dead and buried for three
days. All their knowledge was from hearsay, because as I
said at the beginning (Mark, chapter 14, verse 50), your
other witness says that at the most criti- cal juncture in
the life of Jesus all His disciples forsook Him and fled.
All! They were not there.

So, all the knowledge being from hearsay, you come
across a person who you heard was dead for three days. You
assume that He’s stinking in His grave. When you see such a
person. naturally, you’re terrified. So Jesus wants to
assure them that He’s not what they’re thinking. They are
thinking that He has come back from the dead. A resurrected,
spiritualized body, so He says – I am only quoting what Luke
says – He says, “Behold My hands and My feet.” Have a look
at My hands and My feet, that it is I, Myself. I am the same
fellow, man, what’s wrong with you? Why are you afraid? He
says, “Handle Me and see. Handle Me and see. For a spirit
has no flesh and bones, as you see me have.” A spirit:
indefinite article “a.” A spirit, any spirit, has no flesh
and bones, as you see me have. So, if I have flesh and
bones, I’m not a spirit: I’m not a ghost: I’m not a spook. I
am asking the English man – the one who speaks English as
his mother tongue – since I have flesh and bones. I’m not a
spirit: I’m not a ghost: I’m not a spook. I say. is that
what it means in your language?

I say, you Afrikaner, when a man tells you that, does it
mean that he’s not what you are thinking? That is, he is not
a spirit, he is not a ghost, he is not a spook. And
everybody responds “yes.” If a man tells you a spirit has no
flesh and bones, it means it has no flesh and bones. As you
see, I have these things, so I’m not what you’re thinking.
You are thinking that I was dead, and I have come back from
the dead and am resurrected. If a spirit has no flesh and
bones, in other words, he’s telling you that the body you
are seeing is not a metamorphosed body. It is not a
translated body; it is not a resurrected body. Because a
resurrected body gets spiritualized. Who says so? My
authority is Jesus. You say, “Where?” I say Luke, you look
again – chapter 20 in verse 36. What does he say? You see,
the Jews were always coming to Him with riddles; they were
always asking Him, “Master, shall we pay tribute to Caesar
or not? Master, this woman, we found her in the act. What
shall we do to her? Master …” Again and again. Now, they
come to Him and they ask Him, it says. “Master,” Rabbi in
the Hebrew language, “Master, we had a woman among us, and
this woman according to a Jewish custom, had seven
husbands.” You see, according to a Jewish custom, if a
brother of a man dies and leaves no offspring. then the man
takes his brother’s wife to be his own wife. And when he
fails the third brother does likewise, and the fourth and
the fifth and the sixth, and the seventh.

Seven brothers had this woman as a wife. but there was
no problem while on this earth because it was all one by
one. Now, they want to know from Him that at the
resurrection, in the hereafter, which one is going to have
her, because they all had her here. In other words, there
will be a war in heaven, because we believe that we will all
be resurrected simultaneously. All together. at one time.
And these seven brothers wake up at the same time. and they
see this woman and every one would say, “My wife! My wife!”
and there would be a war in heaven between the brothers for
this one woman.

So they want to know from Him which one is going to have
her on the other side. Luke. chapter 20, verse 36. Check it
out. In answer to that. Jesus said about these resurrected
men and women, “Neither shall they die anymore.” In other
words, “Once they are resurrected, they will be
immortalized.” This is a mortal body. It needs food,
shelter, clothing, sex, rest. Without these things mankind
perishes. That body will be an immortalized body. An
immortal body, no food, no shelter, no clothing, no sex, no
rest. He says neither shall they die anymore. For they are
equal unto the angels.

In other words, they will be angelized. They will be
spiritualized; they will be spiritual creatures; they will
be spirits! For they are equal unto angels and the children
of God. Such are the children of the resurrection – spirit!
He said “A spirit has no flesh and bones, as you see Me
have.” In other words, “I’m not resurrected.” And they
believed not for joy and wonders – Luke 24 again. What
happened then? We thought the man was already dead, perhaps
stinking in His grave. And they believed not for joy –
overjoy – and they wonder what hap- pened? So He says, “Have
you any broiled fish and a honeycomb here, meat – something
to eat?” And they gave Him a piece of bread and He took it
and ate it in their very sight. To prove what? I’m asking
ladies and gentlemen of the jury, what was He trying to
demonstrate? What? “I am the same fellow, man; I am not what
you are thinking, I have not come back from the dead.”

This was Sunday evening after the alleged crucifixion.
Let’s go back. What happened in the morning? Your other
witness, John, chapter 20, verse 1, tells us that it was
Sunday morning, the first day of the week, when Mary
Magdalene went to the tomb of Jesus. I’m asking John, why
did she go there? Or, let’s put another of your witnesses on
the stand, Mark, chapter 16, verse 1. Mark, tell us – why
did Mary go there? And Mark tells us, “She went to anoint
Him.” Now, the Hebrew word for anoint is ‘massahah’ from
which we get the word messiah in Hebrew and masih in Arabic.
The root word for both Arabic and Hebrew is the same.
Massahah means to rub, to massage, to anoint.

I’m asking, do Jews massage dead bodies after three
days? And the answer is no. I say to you Christians, do you
massage dead bodies after three days? Do you? The answer is
no. We Muslims are the closest to the Jew in our ceremony of
law. Do Muslims massage dead bodies after three days? The
answer is no. Then why would they want to go and massage a
dead, rotten body after three days? Within three hours, you
know that rigor mortis sets in, the hardening of the cells,
the rotting of the body, fermentation from within. In three
days’ time the body is rotten from inside. Such a rotting
body when you massage it falls to pieces.

Why would she want to go and massage a dead, rotten body
unless she was looking for a live person? You see, according
to your witnesses, from only reading, she must have seen
signs of life in the limp body as it was being taken down
from the cross. She was about the only woman who, with
Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus, had given the final rites
to the body of Jesus. All his other disciples had forsaken
Him and fled. They were not there. So if this woman had seen
signs of life, she was not going to shout, “There, He’s
alive! He’s alive!” – to invite a sure death.

Three days later, she goes in, and she wants to anoint
Him. And when she reaches the sepulchre, she finds that the
stone is removed. The winding sheets are inside. So, she
starts to cry. I’m asking, why was the stone removed and why
were the winding sheets unwound? Because for a resurrected
body you won’t have to remove the stone to come out. For the
resurrected body, you don’t have to unwind the winding
sheets to move, This is the need of this physical body. This
mortal body. Because a poet tells us, “The stone walls do
not a prison make nor iron bars a cage,” For the soul, for
the spirit, these things do not matter. Iron bars or walls.
It’s the need of His physical body. Jesus Christ, according
to the Scriptures, was watching her from wherever He was,
not from heaven, but from this earth.

Because this tomb, if you remember, was privately owned
property belonging to Joseph of Arimathea. This very rich,
influential disciple had carved out of a rock a big, roomy
chamber. Around that chamber was his vegetable garden. Now,
don’t tell me that this Jew was so generous that he was
planting vegetables five miles out of town for other
people’s sheep and goats to graze upon. Surely he must have
bought his laborers quarters. Or for people who looked after
his garden, or perhaps his country home where he went with
his family for holidays, on the weekends.

Jesus is there and He watches this woman. He knows who
she is and He knows why she’s there. And He goes up to her.
He finds her crying. So He says, “Woman, why weepest thou?
Whom seekest thou?” I’m asking, doesn’t He know? Doesn’t He
know? Why does He ask such a silly question? I’m telling
you, this is not a silly question. He’s actually pulling her
leg, metaphorically. She, supposing Him to be the gardener –
I’m only reading you evidence as it is given. She supposed
Him to be the gardener – I am asking, why does she suppose
He’s a gardener? Do resurrected bodies look like gardeners?
Do they? I say, why does she suppose He’s a gardener? I’m
telling you, because He’s disguised as a gardener. Why is He
disguised as a gardener? I say, because He’s afraid of the
Jews. Why is He afraid of the Jews? I say, because He didn’t
die. And He didn’t conquer death. If He had died, and if He
had conquered death, there’s no need to be afraid anymore.
Why not? Because the resurrected body can’t die twice. Who
says so? I say the Bible. What does it say? It says it is
ordained unto all men, once to die, and after that, the
judgment. You can’t die twice.

So, if He had conquered death, there would be no need to
be afraid. He’s afraid, because He didn’t die, So she,
supposing Him to be the gardener, says, “Sir, if you have
taken Him hence, tell me where have you laid Him to rest?”
To relax, to recuperate, not where have you buried Him. “So
that I might take him away.” I alone .- one woman a frail
Jewess. Imagine her carrying away a corpse of 160 pounds, at
least, not 200 like me. A muscular carpenter supposed to be
a young man in the prime of His life, at least 160 pounds.
And another 100 pounds’ worth of medicines around Him, John,
chapter 19, verse 9. That makes Him 260.

Can you imagine this frail Jewess carrying this bundle
of a corpse over 260 pounds, like a bundle of straw, like a
super-woman in the American comics? And take Him where? Take
Him home? Put Him under a bed – what does she want to do
with Him? Does she want to pickle Him? What does she want to
do with a rotting body. I ask you?

So Jesus – the joke has gone too far – says, “Mary…”
The way He said “Mary,” she recognized that this was Jesus.
So, she wants to grab Him. I’m asking why. To bite Him? No!
To pay respect. We Eastern people do that. She wants to grab
Him. So Jesus says, “Touch Me not,” I say, why not? Is He a
bundle of electricity, a dynamo, that if she touches Him she
will get electrocuted? Tell me, why not? I say be- cause it
hurts, You give me another reason why not, “Touch Me not for
I am not yet ascended unto My Father.” Is she blind? Can’t
she see the man is standing there beside her? What does He
mean by “I’m not gone up” when He is here? He said, “I am
not yet ascended unto My Father.” In the language of the
Jew, in the idiom of the Jew. He’s saying, “I am not dead
yet.”

The problem arises: who moved the stone? How could she
get to Him; who moved the stone? And the Christians are
writing books upon books. One is Frank Morrison, a
rationalist lawyer, He writes a book of 192 pages and he
gives six hypotheses, At the end of the 192 pages, when you
are finished, you still haven’t got the answer. Who moved
the stone? And they’re writing books upon books: who moved
the stone? I can’t understand why you can’t see the very
obvious. Why don’t you read your books: These gospels, you
have it in black and white in your own mother tongue. This
is an anomaly that you read this book in your own mother
tongue.

The Englishman in English, the Afrikaner in Afrikaans
the Zulu in Zulu. Every language group has got the book in
their own language. And each and every one is made to
understand the exact opposite of what he is reading. Exact
opposite. Not just merely misunderstanding.

I want you to prove me wrong. I’m telling you … I’m
only quoting word for word exactly as your witnesses have
said it. Preserved it for us in black and white. I’m not
attributing motives to them. I’m not saying that they are
dishonest witnesses. I’m telling you. Please read this book
of yours once more. Remove the blinders, and read it again.
And tell me where I’m not understanding your language. You
Englishmen, or you Afrikaners, you Zulu. You come back to me
and if you feel that at the end of the talk. our honored
visitor has not done justice to the subject, you call me –
to your Kingdom Halls or to your school hall or anywhere you
want to discuss it further with me. I am prepared to come.
Who moved the stone? I’m asking. It’s very simple – they’re
talking about 20 men required. It is so huge, it needed a
superman from America to move it. One and a half to two
tons. I’m telling you, please read Mark and Matthew and he
tells you that Joseph of Arimathea alone, put the stone into
place. One man – alone. One man! If one man can put it into
place, why can’t two persons remove it, I ask you? Now, all
those happenings – you know that this was prophesied. It was
ordained. And all the stories about what happened afterward

• I’m telling you that Jesus Christ had given you a clear
  cut indication of what was going to happen. And that’s also
  preserved in black and white in your testimony in the Gospel
  of St. Matthew, another of your witnesses, chapter 12.
  verses 38. 39 and 40. The Jews come again to Jesus. with a
  new request. Now they say. “Master, we would have a sign of Thee.” We
  want You to show a miracle to convince us that You are the
  Messiah we are waiting for. You know, something supernatural
  like walking on the water, or flying in the air like a bird.
  Do something, man, then we will be convinced that You are a
  man of God, the Messiah we are waiting for. So Jesus answers
  them. He says, “An evil and adulterous generation seeketh
  after a sign. But there shall be no sign given unto it,
  except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three
  days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so shall
  the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the belly
  of the earth.” The only sign He was prepared to give them
  was the sign of Jonah. He has put all his eggs in one
  basket. He didn’t say, “You know blind Bartimaeus, I healed
  him. You know that woman with issues who had been bleeding
  for years. She touched Me and she was healed. You know, I
  fed five thou- sand people with a few pieces of fish and a
  few pieces of bread. You see that fig tree. I dried it up
  from its very roots.” Nothing of the kind. “This is the only
  sign I will give you, the sign of Jonah.” I’m asking, what
  was that sign? Well, go to the book of Jonah. I brought the book of
  Jonah for you – one page by God – it is only one page in the
  whole Bible. This is the book of Jonah. Four short chapters.
  It won’t take you two minutes to read it. It’s hard to find
  the book because, in a thousand pages, to find one page is
  difficult. But, you don’t have to go there. If you went to
  Sunday school. you will remember what I’m telling you. I’m
  telling you that Jonah was sent to the Ninevites. You know,
  God Almighty told him, “Go to Nineveh,” a city of 100,000
  people. He was to warn them that they must repent in
  sack-cloth and ashes; they must humble themselves before the
  Lord. Jonah was despondent because these materialistic
  people -worldly people – “They will not listen to me. They
  will make a mockery of what I have to tell them.” So instead
  of going to Nineveh, he goes to Joppa. That’s what this
  one-page book tells you. He went to Joppa and was taken
  aboard a ship – he was going to Tarshish. You don’t have to
  remember the names. On the way, there’s a storm. And according to the
  superstitions of these people, anyone who runs away from his
  master’s command, who fails to do his duty, creates a
  turmoil at sea. So, they begin to question in the boat, who
  could be responsible for this storm. Jonah realizes that as
  a prophet of God, he is a soldier of God. And as a soldier
  of God, he has no right to do things presumptuously on his
  own. So he says, “Look, I am the guilty party. God Almighty
  is after my blood. He wants to kill me, so in the process
  He’s sinking the boat, and you innocent people will die. It
  will be better for you if you take me and you throw me
  overboard. Because God is really after my blood.” They say, “No, man, you know, you are such a good man.
  Perhaps you want to commit suicide. We won’t help you to do
  that. We have a sys- tem of our own of discovering right
  from wrong,” and that is what they call casting lots. Like
  heads or tails. So, according to the sys- tem of casting
  lots, Jonah was found to be the guilty man. And so they took
  him, and they threw him overboard. Now I’m going to ask you a question. When they threw him
  overboard. was he dead or was he alive? Now, before you
  answer. I want you to bear in mind that Jonah had
  volunteered. He said, “Throw me.” And when a man volunteers,
  you don’t have to strangle him before throwing, you don’t
  have to spear him before throwing, you don’t have to break
  his arm or limb before throwing. You agree with me? The man had volunteered. So when they threw him
  overboard, what does your common sense say? Was he dead or
  was he alive? Please, I want your help. Was he dead or was
  he alive? Alive. You get no prize for that – it was too
  simple a question. And – astonishingly the Jews say that he
  was alive, the Christians say he was alive and the Mus- lims
  say he was alive. How much nicer it would be if we would
  agree on every other thing. We all agree that he was alive when he was thrown into
  that raging sea. And the storm subsided. Perhaps it was a
  coincidence. A fish comes and gobbles him. Dead or alive?
  Was he dead or was he alive? Alive? Thank you very much. From the fish’s belly, according to the book of Jonah,
  he cries to God for help. Do dead men pray? Do they pray?
  Dead people, do they pray? No! So he was alive. Three days
  and three nights the fish takes him around the ocean. Dead
  or alive? Alive. On the third day, walking on the seashore,
  I’m asking – dead or alive? Alive. What does Jesus say? He
  said, “For as Jonah was.” Just like Jonah. “For as Jonah
  was, so shall the Son of Man be,” referring to Himself. How
  was Jonah – dead or alive? Alive. How was Jesus for three
  days and three nights in the tomb according to the Christian
  belief? How was He? Dead or alive? Dead. He was dead according to our belief. In other words,
  He’s unlike Jonah. Can’t you see? He says, I shall be like
  Jonah and you are tell- ing me – there’s one thousand two
  hundred million Christians of the world – that He was unlike
  Jonah. He said, I will be like Jonah, you say He was unlike
  Jonah. If I was a Jew, I would not accept Him as my Messiah.
  I am told in the Qur’an that Jesus was the Messiah. I
  accept. He was one of the mightiest messengers of God – I
  accept. I believe in His miraculous birth. I believe that He
  gave life to the dead by God’s permission. And He healed
  those born blind and the leper by God’s permission. But if I
  was a Jew, according to the sign that He has given, He
  failed. Jonah is alive – Jesus is dead. They are not alike.
  I don’t know in what language you can make them alike – that
  they are like one another. So the clever man. you know, the
  doctor of theology, the professor of religion, he tells me
  that I don’t under- stand the Bible. Your Bible, I don’t understand. Why don’t I understand
  the Bible? He says, “You see Mr. Deedat, Jesus Christ is
  emphasizing the time fac- tor.” Note, He uses the word
  “three” four times. For Jonah was three days and three
  nights. so shall the Son of Man be three days and three
  nights. He uses the word “three” four times. In other words,
  He’s emphasizing the time factor – not whether He was dead
  or alive. I’m tellinq you that there is nothing miraculous
  in a time factor, Whether the man was dead for three minutes
  or three hours or three weeks, that’s not a miracle. The miracle, if there is one at all, is that you expect
  a man to be dead and he’s not dead. When Jonah was thrown
  into the sea, we expect him to die. He didn’t die, so it’s a
  miracle. A fish comes and gobbles him – he ought to die. He
  didn’t die, so it’s a miracle. Three days and three nights
  of suffocation and heat in the whale’s belly, He ought to
  die: he didn’t die. It’s a miracle, it’s a miracle because
  you expect a man to die and he didn’t die. When you expect a man to die, and if he dies, what’s so
  miraculous about that? I ask you, what’s miraculous about
  that? If a gunman took a gun and fired six shots into the
  heart of a man and he dies, is that a miracle? No. But if he
  laughs it off. if he is still alive and walking with us and
  if, after the six shots tear his heart to pieces, he laughs:
  ha ha ha ha — he’s alive. So we say it’s a miracle. Can’t
  you see? The miracle is when we expect a man to die and he
  doesn’t die. When the man who is expected to die, dies, it’s
  no miracle. We expect Jesus also to die. For what He had been
  through, if He died, there is no miracle. There’s no sign.
  If He didn’t die, it’s a miracle – can’t you see? So He
  says, “No, no. It is the time factor.” Drowning men clutch
  at straws – drowning women do the same. He says, “No. it’s
  the time factor.” I say, did He fulfill that? He says, “Of
  course, He fulfilled that.” I say, how did He fulfill it?
  Look, it’s very easy to make statements. HOW did He fulfill
  it? I say, watch. When was He crucified, I ask you? The
  whole Christian world says on Good Friday. Britain, France,
  Germany. America, Lesotho. Zambia – in South Africa we have
  a public holiday – every Christian nation commemorates Good
  Friday. I am asking, what makes Good Friday good? So the Christian says, “Christ died for our sins, That
  makes it good.” So He was crucified on the Good Friday. He
  says, yes. Yes. I say, when was He crucified – morning or
  afternoon? So the Christian says in the afternoon. How long
  was He on the cross? Some say three hours, some say six
  hours. I say, I am not going to argue with you. Whatever you
  say, I accept. You know, when we read the Scriptures, they
  tell us that when they wanted to crucify Jesus, they were in
  a hurry. And they were in such a hurry that Josh tells us in
  his book, The Resurrection Factor, that within some 12
  hours, there were six separate trials. Six trials He went
  through. These things only happen in films. These sort of things
• six trials in 12 hours from midnight to the next morning
  and on, only take place on films. But I believe whatever you
  tell me. Whatever you tell me, I accept. So the Jews were in
  a hurry to put Him up on the cross. Do you know why? Because
  of the general public. Jesus was a Jew. The general public
  loved Him. The man had healed the blind and the lepers and
  the sick and had raised the dead. He had fed so many
  thousands of people with bread and fish. He was a hero, and
  if they discovered – the general public – that their hero’s
  life was in danger, there would have been a riot. So, they
  had a midnight trial. Early in the morning they took Him to
  Pilate. Pilate says, “He is not my kettle of fish – take Him
  to Herod.” Herod says, “I’m not interested – take Him back
  to Pilate. And hurry, hurry, hurry.” And they held six
  trials within 12 hours. Six. As if they had nothing else to
  do, but I believe what you tell me. They succeeded in
  putting Him up on the cross, according to your witnesses. According to your witnesses. But as much as they were in
  a hurry to put Him up, they were in a hurry to bring Him
  down. You know why? Because at sunset on Friday, at six
  o’clock, the Sabbath starts. You see, the Jews count the
  days, night and day, night and day. We Muslims count our
  days, night and day, night and day. Not day and night. We
  count night and day. Six o’clock, our day begins in the
  evening. So, before sunset, the body must come down because
  they were told in the book of Deuteronomy that they must see
  to it that nobody is hanging on the tree on the Sabbath day.
  “That thy land be not defiled which the Lord thy God giveth
  thee for an inheritance.” So quickly, quickly, they brought
  the body down and they gave Him a burial bath, and they put
  a hundred pounds of medicine around Him. And they put Him
  into the the book of Deuteronomy that they must see to it
  that nobody is hanging on the tree on the Sabbath day. “That
  thy land be not defiled which the Lord thy God giveth thee
  for an inheritance.” So quickly, quickly, they brought the
  body down and they gave Him a burial bath, and they put a
  hundred pounds of medicine around Him. And they put Him into
  the sepulchre. Not a grave – a sepulchre. A big, roomy
  chamber above ground. So it’s already evening. From three
  o’clock in the afternoon, for whatever you do, the details
  are given in Josh’s book. Burial baths normally take more
  than an hour. You read the details about how the Jew give a
  burial bath to the dead. That takes more than an hour
  itself. But let’s say they succeeded in doing all these
  things in a hurry, hurry. You know they were in a hurry. Six
  trials in 12 hours. Now they put Him into the sepulchre.

By the time they put Him in, it’s already evening. So watch

• watch my fingers. Friday night He’s supposed to be in the
  grave. Watch my finger. Saturday day, He still is supposed
  to be in the grave. Am I right? Saturday night, He still is
  supposed to be in the grave. But Sunday morning, the first
  day of the week, when Mary Magdalene goes to the tomb, the
  tomb was empty.

That’s what your witnesses say. I am asking – how many days
and how many nights? You remember, I said, supposed,
supposed, supposed… You know why? Because the Bible
doesn’t say actually when He came out. He could have come
out Friday night. The Bible doesn’t say how He came. So,
Friday night, Saturday day, Saturday night. I’m asking, how
many days and how many nights? Please, if you can see, if
your eyes are not defective, tell me how many? How many do
you see? Right! Two nights and a day. Look at this. Is it
the same as He said, for as Jonah was three days and three
nights, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three
nights? Three and three. Look at this: two and one. Please
tell me now it means the same thing.

I want to know what you are reading. I want to know what you
are reading in your own book! The man is telling you that
what is going to happen will be like Jonah. And the sign of
Jonah is a miracle. And the only miracle you can attribute
to this man, Jonah, is that we expected him to die and he
didn’t die. Jesus – we expect Him also to die. If He died,
it is not a sign. If He didn’t die, it is a sign.

Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. Can you
see, the people have been programmed. We all get programmed
from childhood. When I went to America, and spoke at the
University in San Francisco, I said you people are
brainwashed. I told them, “You are brainwashed.” Of course,
I could afford to talk to them – the American will take it.
He is the almighty. You know, great guy. He can take it. So
I said, “You people are brainwashed.” So one American, a
professor, interjected, “No, not brainwashed – programmed.”
I said, “I beg your pardon – programmed.” So, Mr. Chairman,
ladies and gentlemen, I hope, by the time this meeting is
over, you will be re-programmed into reading the book as it
is, and not as you are made to understand.

Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen.

# Josh McDowell

Ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon. Mr. Deedat, and
the wonderful people of this city, and this country of South
Africa, I am thankful for the opportunity to be a part of
this symposium on Islam and Christianity’s view of the
crucifixion and the resurrection.

In preparation for this, I didn’t realize that I would
be dealing with so many different theories on the
crucifixion from the Islamic viewpoint. I found out, first
of all, that the majority of the Muslims throughout the
world hold to the substitutionary theory. That in Surah
number 4, in the Qur’an, a substitute, another person, was
placed in Christ’s position on the cross that Jesus was
removed and taken to heaven.

In other words, it was someone else. But then, I found
such a diverse opinion among Muslims. Some Muslim writers
say that it was a disciple of Jesus who was placed on the
cross in His stead. Another Muslim writer, Tabari, quoting
Ibn Ishaq, said it was a man by the name of Sargus, or
Sergius, who was placed on the cross. Another Muslim writer
by the name of Baidawi, said it was a Jew named Titanus who
was placed on the cross. Another, Ath-Tha-‘labi, says it was
a Jew named Fal Tayanus, who was placed on the cross. And
still another Muslim writer. Wahb ibn Munabbah, said it was
a Rabbi of the Jews, Ashyu, who was placed on the cross.

Then, others feeling that it might be a little unfair to
put an innocent man there, say, well, it must be Judas
Iscariot who was placed on the cross. Now, Mr. Deedat might
be able to correct me, but I do not believe there is any
evidence whatsoever in the Qur’an for that. There are in
some of the sects. earlier than Islam, references to that.
But I always wondered, why did God have to have a
substitute? Why couldn’t He have simply taken Jesus then?

Others will say – and this is not what the majority of
Muslims believe – that Jesus died a natural death some years
after the crucifixion and the alleged resurrection. In other
words, “Hazrat Isa,” Jesus is dead! This is a more recent
development in Islam. And I’m always wary of recent
developments.

It was started mainly by a man by the name of Venturini,
who said Jesus really didn’t die on the cross – He just
swooned or passed out, then was put into a tomb and
resuscitated. This is also the theme of the Ahmadiyas, a
radical sect of Islam. One of their main doctrines,
established by their founder and allegedly their prophet,
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, it is a part of the doctrine of
Qadianism.

Some will say to be crucified means to die. Therefore,
Jesus wasn’t crucified because He did not die on the cross.
I’m not quite sure how they got that definition. What I need
to do is this: present the facts to you, as I have been able
to document them in my books, and then let you, as fair
minded, intelligent people, make up your minds. The
background for the points I’m going to make is that when I
was in the University, I wanted to write a book against
Christianity. I wanted to refute it intellectually. The last
thing I wanted to do was become a Christian. But after two
years of research and spending a lot of money and time, I
discovered facts – not only facts that God has stated in His
Holy Word, the Bible, but facts that are documented in
sources in history. Men and women, these are some of the
facts that I found as I tried to refute Christianity and I
couldn’t.

The first fact I found is that Jesus was not afraid to
die. In fact, He predicted His own death and resurrection.
He said, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem.” He said to
His disciples, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered up
to the death. And they will deliver Him to the Gentiles to
mock and to whip and to crucify Him. And on the third day He
will be raised up” (paraphrased from Matthew 17:22-23).

In another place He began to teach them that He had
discovered many things. And then He said He’d be rejected by
the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, He would
be killed, and He added that after three days, He was to
rise again (Matthew 20:18, 19).

In Matthew 17, Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is
going to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will
kill Him, and He will be raised again on the third day.”

The second thing I learned as I studied the life of
Jesus Christ is that Jesus was willing to die. In Matthew
26, He said, “My Father, if it is possible, let this Cup
pass from Me.” But what a lot of people leave out is the
context of what Jesus said. He said, “Yet not as I will, but
as Thou wilt, Father” (Matthew 26:39).

Now Jesus did not hide Himself. He is very clear about
where He is. It says in John 18 that He went to the place
where they usually found Him. He didn’t want to hide from
the authorities. He knew what was going to happen. In John
18, verse 4, it says, “Jesus therefore. knowing all the
things that were going to come upon Him.” He knew it! And He
was ready for it. In Matthew Jesus says, “Don’t you
understand, I could call on twelve legions of angels to
protect Me?” But He said, “I want Your will. Father.” and
God answered His prayer and let Him fulfill “the will of the
Father.” Jesus said in John 10: “The Father loves Me because
I lay down My life that I may take it up again. No one has
taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own
initiative.” You have to remember – Jesus being the God-Man,
came as God the Son, the eternal Word, to take the sins of
the world upon Himself. The Holy Bible (I Corinthians 5:21)
says that He, God, made Jesus sin for us, and, if you can,
imagine the agony that the eternal Word, the Son, was going
through at that time.

The third fact that I learned is that the Jews were not
guilty of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. I was very
surprised. Mr. Deedat, that you needed to be the defender of
the Jews. There are Muslims and Christians that have gotten
that distorted all through history. Jesus said in Matthew

20. verses 18 and 19, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and
    they will condemn Me to death. and will deliver Me over to
    the Gentiles, to mock and whip and crucify Me.” Jesus said,
    “I lay down My life.” If anyone was guilty, Jesus was. He
    said, “I have the power to lay it down, I have the power to
    take it up.” Also, Mr. Deedat, I feel that both you and I are
    responsible, because the Bible says,”For all have sinned and
    fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). It was our
    sins that drove Jesus Christ to the cross. The fourth fact that I learned is that the Christians
    are called to an intelligent. intellectual faith – not a
    blind faith. I was quite surprised when I read in the little
    booklet, What Was the Sign of Jonah? by Mr. Ahmed Deedat,
    that over one thousand million Christians today blindly
    accept that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ. I’m a little
    confused, because really, Mr. Deedat, you read from the
    Qur’an and you said you accept it, you don’t need facts, you
    don’t need any evidence. You simply accept it and then
    you’re saying that Christians, because they accept what God,
    Yahweh, has revealed through the Holy Bible, that Jesus is
    the Christ, that because we accept that, we do it blindly.
    I’m amazed, because in the Muslim book, the Qur’an, it
    states that one of the titles given to Jesus is “al-Masih.”
    I believe it is referred to 11 times that way. The Muslim
    translator of the Qur’an into English, Yusuf Ali, translates
    the Arabic here as “Christ” in the English translation. So,
    why are we accused of being blind in accepting Jesus as the
    Christ? In my country, one of the greatest legal minds that ever
    lived – the man who made the university of Harvard famous –
    was Dr. Simon Greenleaf. He became a Christian through
    trying to refute Jesus Christ as the Eternal Word and the
    resurrection. Finally, after trying to do it, he came to the
    conclusion that the resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of
    the best established events of history, according to the
    laws of legal evidence administered in the courts of
    justice. C.S. Lewis, the literary genius of our age, was the
    professor of medieval and renaissance literature at Oxford.
    He was a giant in his field. No one could question his
    intellectual capabilities. He became a believer in Jesus
    Christ as his Savior and Lord when he tried to refute the
    reliability of the New Testament and he couldn’t. And he
    said, “I was one of the most reluctant converts, but I was
    brought to Jesus Christ because of my mind.” Lord Caldecote, the Lord Chief Justice of England, a man
    that held the highest offices that anyone could hold in the
    legal systems of England, said, ” … as often as I have
    tried to examine the evidence for Christianity, I have come
    to believe it as a fact beyond dispute.” Thomas Arnold was the headmaster of a major varsity and
    university for 14 years. He is an historian and the author
    of the famous three- volume series, the History of Rome. He
    said, “I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which
    is proved by better and fuller evidence than the
    resurrection of Jesus Christ.” Dr. Werner von Braun, the German scientist – the man who
    immigrated to my country – was one of the creators of the
    American Space Program. He said he never really became a
    scientist until he came to know Jesus Christ personally as
    Savior and God. The fifth fact that I discovered was the historical
    accuracy of the Christian Bible. The Christian New Testament
    is exceptional in its reliability and trustworthiness and
    survival down through history. It is unrivaled in manuscript
    authority. A manuscript is a hand-written copy over against
    a printed copy. Men and women, of the Christian New
    Testament alone, there are more than 24,000 manuscripts. Not
    versions of the Bible, Mr. Deedat, manuscript copies. Men
    and women, the number two book in all of history in
    manuscript authority and literature, is Homer’s Iliad, with
21. The number two book in the whole of history in
    manuscript authority. Then, Sir Frederick Kenyon was a man who was second to
    no one in the ability and the training to make authoritative
    statements about manuscripts of literature in history. The
    former curator and director of the British Museum, he said,
    “The last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have
    come down to us as they were written now has been removed.
    Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books
    of the New Testament may now be regarded as finally
    established.” The point: there are some people who do not have an
    historical perspective of literature, who try to make an
    issue out of the fact that the writers of the four accounts
    of the gospel, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, never signed
    their names. Please, men and women, we need to go back
    through history and see how they did it then. First of all, the manuscripts were so well-accepted as
    being authoritative, with everyone knowing who wrote them,
    they did not need names placed on them. You might say it was
    the writers’ way of not distracting from the purpose of
    making Jesus Christ the central issue. Also, the work of
    these authors, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, went through
    the apostolic age. They went through the test of the
    apostolic period of the first century to confirm their
    accuracy, authenticity and reliability. Other people,
    through limited reading and absence of any type of research,
    say that the documents of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are
    hearsay because the writers were not eyewitnesses of the
    events surrounding the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus
    Christ. The people who say that will often appeal to Mark 14:50.
    They say that within two minutes they could dismiss the
    argument because Jesus’ followers all left Him and fled. So
    therefore, everything was hearsay. Men and women. this line
    of reasoning ignores common sense in the facts of the case.
    For example, read just the next four verses. It says this:
    “And Peter followed Him.” You see, they left Him in a group,
    but they came back individually – immediately, Mr. Deedat. Verse 4 says: “And Peter followed Him at a distance.” He
    went right into the courtyard of the high priest. And he was
    sitting there with the officer. Can you imagine? With the
    officers, and warming himself. In Mark 14, it says, “And
    Peter was below, in the courtyard.” Men and women, if you
    have studied the Scriptures, you’ll realize that Mark, in
    his gospel, was writing down all the eyewitness accounts of
    Peter. Peter was right there. Then we go to John 18, verse
    15: “And Simon Peter was following Jesus, and so was another
    disciple. Now that disciple was known to the high priest and
    entered with Jesus into the court of the high priest.” John
    19:26, “When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the
    disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His
    mother, ‘Woman, behold your son.’ ” They were eyewitnesses.
    They were there. About being permissible in a court of law. In most legal
    situations, you have what can be referred to as an ancient
    document rule. Now, you have to go to law to substantiate
    these things. Dr. John Warwick Montgomery is a lawyer and
    dean of the Simon Greenleaf School of Law, and a lecturer at
    the International School of Theology and Law in Strasbourg,
    France. He said that the application of the ancient document
    rule to the documents of the New Testament (especially the
    four gospels) – this is a head of a law school speaking –
    “Applied to the gospel records, and reinforced by
    responsible lower (textual) criticism, this rule would
    establish competency in any court of law.” The greatest eyewitness testimony is not found in the
    gospels. It is found in I Corinthians, the epistle by the
    apostle Paul, chapter 15, and was written in A.D. 55 to 56.
    I have yet to find a reputable scho- lar who would deny
    that. Paul says (now it’s 20 years earlier, right after his
    conversion – he had met with the leaders. He had met with
    James, the brother of Jesus in Jerusalem), that the
    tradition was passed on to him that there were over 500
    eyewitnesses of the resur- rection. If you take that into a
    court of law, give each eyewitness just six minutes, that
    would make 3,000 minutes of eyewitness testi- mony, or 50
    hours of eyewitness testimony. However, that’s not the key point here. That was the
    tradition handed down to him, what he had examined
    personally. But Paul says then, the majority of them are
    still alive right now. Not when the tradition was passed
    down, but right now. Men and women, Paul was saying, “If you
    don’t believe me, ask them.” Also, many people overlook the fact that when the
    message of Jesus Christ was presented by the apostles and
    disciples, and the New Testament was shared, present in the
    audience were hostile and antagonistic witnesses. If they
    would have dared to depart from the truth of what was said,
    there were hostile witnesses to correct them immediate- ly.
    In a court of law that is referred to as the principle of
    cross- examination. They did not dare to depart from the
    truth. Also, apart from the Bible, you have several extra
    biblical secular sources. One, a man by the name of Polycarp, was a disciple of
    the apostle John. He writes in his works. going back almost
    2.000 years ago, “So firm is the ground upon which these
    gospels rest, that even the here- tics themselves would not
    undermine it.” They had to start from what was presented and
    then develop their own heresy. Because even then, they could
    not say, Jesus didn’t say that. Jesus didn’t do that then…
    they couldn’t do that. So, they had to start with what He
    said, and develop their own heresy. The conclusion of many scholars is a tremendous
    confidence in the Christian Bible. Mr. Millar Burrows was on
    the staff of Yale University. one of the most prestigious
    universities in my country. He said. “There is an increase
    of confidence in the accurate transmission of the text of
    the New Testament itself.” Dr. Howard Vox, a researcher and
    archaeologist, said, “From the standpoint of literary
    evidence, the only logical conclusion is in the case where
    the reliability of the New Testament is infinitely stronger
    than any other record of antiquity.” The sixth fact that I discovered was that Christ was
    crucified. What does the historical, reliable record show?
    It is clear, not only from the Christian’s biblical
    historical record, but also from secular sources, which are
    documented in the back of my book, Evidence That Demands a
    Verdict, that He not only predicted His death by
    crucifixion, but that He was actually crucified. Jesus said
    that He would be whipped and delivered over to be crucified.
    And then. in John 19:17. 18, “They took Jesus therefore, and
    He went out, bearing His own cross, to the place called the
    Place of a Skull…. There they crucified Him, and with Him
    two other men, one on either side, and Jesus in between.” Let’s follow through what actually happened. First of
    all, it points out that Jesus was whipped by the Romans.
    What did that mean? The Romans would strip a person down to
    the waist and would tie him in the courtyard. Then they
    would take a whip that had a handle about a foot and a half
    long. At the end of the handle, it had four leather thongs
    with heavy, jagged bones or balls of lead with jagged edges,
    wound into the end of the straps. A minimum of five. They
    would be different lengths. The Romans would bring the whip
    down over the back of the individual and all the balls of
    lead or bone would hit the body at the same time. and they
    they would yank the whip down. The Jews would only permit 40
    lashes. So they never did more than 39 so they wouldn’t
    break the law if they miscounted. The Romans could do as
    many as they wanted. So, when the Romans whipped a Jew, they
    did 41 or more out of spite to the Jews. And so he had
    probably at least 41, if not more, lashes. There are several medical authorities that have done
    research on crucifixion. One is a Dr. Barbet, in France, and
    another is Dr. C. Truman Davis, in the state of Arizona in
    my country. He is a medical doctor who has done meticulous
    study of the crucifixion from a medical perspective. Here he
    gives the effect of the Roman flogging: “The heavy whip is brought down with full force again
    and again across (a person’s) shoulders, back and legs. At
    first, the heavy thongs cut through the skin only. Then, as
    the blows continue, they cut deeper into the subcutalleous
    tissues, producing first an oozing of blood from the
    capillaries and veins of the skin, and finally spur- ting
    arterial bleeding from vessels in the underlying muscles.
    The small balls of lead first produce large, deep bruises,
    which the others cut wide open. Finally, the skin of the
    back is hanging in long ribbons, and the entire area is an
    unrecognizable mass of torn, bleed- ing tissue.” Other sources I have documented said that sometimes the
    back is literally opened up to the bowels within. Many
    people would die just from the whipping. After the whipping they took Jesus out to the execution
    area and drove spikes into His wrists and His feet. It says
    that late that Friday afternoon they broke the legs of the
    two thieves hanging with Jesus, but they did not break His
    legs. Now, why did they break someone’s legs? When you are
    prostrate on the cross, or hanging there, they bent the legs
    up underneath and drove the spike through here. When you
    died by crucifixion, often what would happen is you would
    die from your own air. The pectoral muscles would be
    affected and you could not let your air out. You could take
    it in, but could not let it out. And so, you’d hang there and suffocate, you would push
    up on your legs to let the air out, and then come down to
    take it in. When they wanted to bring about the death
    immediately, they broke their legs and they couldn’t push
    up, and they would die. Jesus’ legs were not broken. As the
    Holy God, revealing His Holy Word in the Bible, points out,
    Jesus had died. Men and women, if they had broken His legs,
    He would not have been our Messiah. He would not have been
    the Eternal Word, because God, Yahweh in the Old Testament,
    prophesies in Psalms that His legs would not be broken. His
    bones would not be broken. Men and women, He was fulfilling
    what God, Yahweh, had already revealed would take place. The next fact that I discovered was that Christ was
    dead. That’s the seventh fact that I discovered, Men and
    women, in John 19:30, Jesus willed Himself to die, That’s
    why He didn’t take so long, He came to die. He said, “I lay
    My life down.” And in John 19, He said, “It is finished,”
    and He bowed His head and He gave up the Spirit, He willed
    Himself to die, Now, in John 19, verse 34 (Mr. Deedat, in
    his booklet, has referred to it as ‘Evidence That Jesus Was
    Not Dead’) you have reference to the blood and water. He was on the cross and they’d already acknowledged Him
    being dead, but they thought they’d give a parting shot, as
    you would say, They took a spear, and thrust it into His
    side. Eyewitness accounts said blood and water came out
    separated, Mr. Deedat, in his book, appealed to this
    phenomenon as evidence that Christ was still alive, He
    supports this in his writing, by an appeal to an article in
    the Thinkers Digest 1949, by an anesthesiologist. I was able
    to acquire medical research by various people in this area. I have time to share just two of the findings. First,
    from a scholastic viewpoint: many medical and university or
    varsity libraries that once carried this journal, no longer
    do so. It is considered by many in the medical field to be
    not only out of date, but behind the medical times. Second, from a medical viewpoint: A wound of the type
    inflicted on Jesus, if the person were still alive, would
    not bleed out the wound opening, but bleed into the chest
    cavity, causing an internal hemorrhage. At the aperture of
    the wound, the blood would be barely oozing from the
    opening, For a spear to form a perfect channel that would
    allow the blood and serum to flow out the spear wound is
    next to impossible. The massive internal damage done to a
    person under crucifixion, and then being speared in the
    heart area, would cause death almost immediately, not even
    including what happens with the details of a Jew’s burial. At the State of Massachusetts General Hospital, over a
    period of years, they did research on people who died of a
    ruptured heart. Normally, the heart had 20 cc’s of
    pericardial fluid. When a person dies of a ruptured heart,
    there is more than 500 cc’s of pericardial fluid, And it
    would come out in the form of a fluid and clotted blood.
    Perhaps this is what was viewed at that time. The Jewish burial would have been a final death blow. Mr.
    Deedat says in his book, page 9, in “What Was the Sign of
    Jonah”? that they gave the Jewish burial bath, plastered him
    with 100 pounds of aloe and myrrh. Now, going through
    whipping, where the back is almost laid open, having your
    arms and feet pierced, being put on a cross, having a spear
    thrust in your side, being taken down and then plastered
    with 100-some pounds of spices of cement consistency – it
    would call for a greater miracle than the resurrection to
    live through that, Then, the severe discipline of the Romans. Pilate was a
    little amazed, and I would have been too, that Christ had
    already been dead, or that they had come and asked for the
    body, So, he called a centurion in. And he said, “I want you
    to go and confirm to me that Jesus is dead.” Now men and
    women, this centurion was not a fool. He was not about ready
    to leave his wife a widow. The centurion would always check with four different
    executioners. That was Roman law. There had to be four
    executioners. They did that so in case one man was a little
    lax, the other one would catch him in it, And you would
    never have all four lax in signing the death warrant.
    Discipline was severe with the Romans. For example, when the angel let Peter out of jail in
    Acts 12 in the New Testament, Herod called in the guard and
    executed them all – just for letting one man out of jail. In
    Acts 16 in the Christian New Testament, the doors had been
    opened up in the jail for Paul and Silas, their chains had
    been loosened, and the moment the guard saw they were freed,
    he pulled out his own sword to execute himself. And Paul
    said, “Wait a minute!” You see, that guard knew what would
    happen, He would rather die by his own sword, than be
    executed by the Romans. Then Christ was dead. Flavius Josephus, the Jewish
    historian, records that when he went into Jerusalem in A.D.
    70 when Titus was destroying it, he saw three of his friends
    being crucified. They had just been put up there. They had
    been whipped and everything. He went to the commander of the
    guard and he said, “Please release them.” Now, you have to
    understand, Flavius was the name given to Josephus by the
    Roman Emperor who had brought him into his own family.
    That’s why he had influence as a Jew. And you know,
    immediately, the Roman guard captain took the three men down
    from the cross and still, men and women, two of the three
    died. They’d just been put up there and they were removed
    quickly. Crucifixion was that cruel. The Jews knew that Jesus was dead. In Matthew 27 they
    went to the Roman leader and said, “Sir, we remember that
    when He was still alive. ..” In other words, what is He now?
    Dead! “When He was still alive He said, ‘After three days I
    am to rise again.’ “I believe Mr. Deedat has his books
    saying that the Jews realized they’d made a mistake. He
    really wasn’t dead, so they thought they wouldn’t make a
    second mistake, so they go and get a guard unit put there.
    Well, the Jews themselves said He was already dead. “We just
    want to make sure no one takes His body so there won’t be
    any deception.” The Jews have been accused of a lot of
    things, but very seldom have they ever been accused of
    stupidity. They knew He was dead. The next fact I discovered was the burial procedure of
    the Jews. Some people say they were hurrying because of the
    Sabbath coming, and they had to carry Him back. Men and
    women, I checked this out in detail. And I documented in my
    Resurrection Factor book that the burial procedure was so
    important they could even do it on the Sabbath. They didn’t
    have to worry about the Sabbath coming up. They didn’t want
    the body to hang on the cross once the Sabbath began, but
    they could take their time burying Him. They would put
    spices around the body – in this case, 100 pounds of
    aromatic spices – along with a gummy, cement substance. They would stretch the body out or straighten it out.
    They’d take a piece of linen cloth 30 centimeters wide. They
    would start to wrap the body from the feet. In between the
    folds, they put the cement consistency and the spices. They
    wrapped the body to the armpits, put the arms down, started
    below the fingers again, wrapped to the neck, and put a
    separate piece around the head. In this situation, I would
    estimate an encasement of 117 to 120 pounds. The next fact that I discovered is that they took
    extreme security precautions at the tomb of Jesus Christ.
    One, it says that they rolled large stone against the tomb.
    Mark says the stone was extremely large. One historical
    reference going back to the first century says that 20 men
    could not move the stone. Now. I think it was exaggerated a
    little bit there. But he was making a point about the size
    of the stone. Two engineering professors. after they heard
    me speak on the stone, went to Israel. As non-Christian
    engineering professors, they calculated the size stone
    needed to roll against a four-and-a-half to five-foot
    doorway of the Jewish tombs. They wrote me a well-documented
    letter, and said it would have to have a minimum weight of
    one and a half to two tons. Mr. Deedat, in his books, makes an issue that one man,
    or two at the most, rolled the stone against the entrance.
    Therefore, one or two men could roll it back. It says Joseph
    of Arimathea rolled the stone against the entrance. Don’t
    force on the Bible or the Qur’an anything you would not
    force in conversation today. For example: when I came to the
    stadium the other day to look it over. I said to one of the
    people that brought me here, “How did all these chairs get
    here?” He said, “Mr. Deedat brought them.” Mr. Deedat, did
    you bring all 700 of these chairs personally, yourself? No!
    They were brought by many people. I could go away from here
    saying Mr. Deedat put on this symposium. But I think there
    were some others that helped make all the arrangements. History says Hitler invaded France. Now, maybe he would
    have tried it in France alone, but I don’t think he would
    try it in South Africa alone. There could have been a number of people that helped
    Joseph of Arimathea. Plus, you find when you go back and
    research it out that the tombs had a trough going up the
    side. They placed the stone there. They had a block. Then,
    men and women, my seven-year-old daughter could roll it,
    because you simply pull up the block, letting the stone roll
    down the front and lodge itself against the entrance of the
    tomb. Then, a security guard was put there. The Jews wanted
    one. They went to the Romans and said, give us a guard unit.
    The Greek word was kustodia. Men and women, a kustodia was a
    16-man security unit. Each man was trained to protect six
    square feet of ground. The 16 men, according to Roman
    history, were supposed to be able to protect 6 square yards
    against an entire battalion and hold it. Each guard had four
    weapons on his body. He was a fighting machine, almost the
    same as was true of the Temple Police. Next, a Roman seal was placed on the tomb with a Roman
    insignia. That seal stood for the power and the authority of
    the Roman Empire. The body of Christ was encased with 100
    and some pounds of cement and aromatic spices. A
    one-and-a-half to two-ton stone was rolled against the
    entrance: a 16-man security unit was placed there, and a
    Roman seal. But something happened. It’s a matter of
    historical record: after three days, the tomb was empty. I don’t have to debate that. Mr. Deedat agrees the tomb
    was empty. So, I won’t waste any time here. The sign of Jonah – I’m so glad you brought that up. The
    sign of Jonah – won’t take too much time there because I
    don’t think it’s necessary in this sense. Whenever you study
    something, you study it in the language and the culture of
    that day. Now, you go back to the Jewish language, and the
    Jewish culture of that day. Not today – not South African,
    not Indian, not American. The Jewish-Israelite culture of
    that day. Let’s see what three days and three nights mean. In
    Esther, chapter 4, in the Old Testament of the Christian
    Jewish Bible, it says there was a fast for three days and
    three nights. But then. it went on, and it says they
    completed the fast on the third day. You see. in Jewish
    language, “after three days and three nights,” meant “to the
    third day” or “on the third day.” Jesus said in Matthew
    12:40 He would be buried for three days and three nights. In Matthew 20, Jesus said He would be raised up on the
    third day – not after the third day. The Jews came to Jesus,
    and they said in Matthew 27, verse 63, “Sir…that deceiver
    said ‘After three days I am to rise again.'” So, they asked
    for a Roman guard. Now watch the langu- age here.
    “Therefore, give orders for the grave to be made secure
    until the third day,” not after the third day. They knew
    what Jesus said, three days and three nights, meant until
    the third day, “lest His disciples come and steal Him away.” Friday before six o’clock they had three hours to bury
    Him. It took less than an hour. The Jewish reckoning of time
    in the Jewish Talmud and the Babylonian Jerusalem Talmud
    (the commentaries of the Jews), said any part, an “onan” –
    any part of the day is considered a full day. On Friday
    before six o’clock by Jewish reckoning, any minute was one
    day and one night. From Friday night at six o’clock to
    Saturday at six o’clock, was another day and another night. Men and women, from Jewish reckoning – not ours – any
    moment after six o’clock Saturday night is another day,
    another night. We do the same thing in my country. If my son
    was born one minute before midnight on December the 31st, on
    my income taxes to my government, I could treat my son with
    the same time principle as having been born at any time
    during that one full year – 365 days and 365 nights. When the Roman guards failed in their duty, they were
    automatically executed. One way they were executed was they
    were stripped of their clothes and burned alive in a fire
    started with their own clothes. The seal was broken. Men and
    women, when that seal was broken, the security forces were
    thrown into finding that man or men, and when they were
    found, anyone breaking that seal was condemned to
    crucifixion upside down. The stone was removed, men and women, and I’ll ask Mr.
    Deedat to check it out carefully. The revealed Word of God
    in the Christian New Testament, in the original Greek (as
    the Qur’an is in Arabic, the New Testament is in Greek),
    points out that a one-and-a-half- to two-ton stone was
    rolled up a slope, away from not just the entrance, but away
    from the entire tomb, looking like it had been picked up and
    carried away. Now, if they wanted to tip-toe in, move the
    stone over, and help Jesus out, why all the efforts to move
    a one-and a-half to two-ton stone up away from the entire
    sepulchre? That guard unit would have had to have been
    sleeping with cotton in their ears and with earmuffs on not
    to have heard that one. Then, Mary went to the tomb in John 20. Mr. Deedat says
    that she went there to anoint the body and that the word
    “anoint” means “to massage.” Well, let me tell you, if
    that’s true – it’s not – but if it were true, and that’s the
    way the Muslims do it, it would have killed Jesus. If I went
    through crucifixion, had my hands and feet pierced, my back
    laid open to the bowels, 100 and some pounds put around me,
    I wouldn’t want anyone to massage me. The word “anoint”
    means “consecrated.” As Mr. Deedat brought out in his book,
    the priests and kings were anointed when being consecrated
    to their office. When He said, “Touch Me not,” Mr. Deedat
    says it means, “I am hurting – don’t touch Me.” Well, read
    the next phrase, Mr. Deedat. It says, “Do not touch Me,
    because I haven’t yet ascended to the Father.” That’s why they’re not to touch Him because “I haven’t
    ascended to the Father.” And then He says, “Now, go tell My
    disciples I am ascending to the Father.” A little bit later,
    He says, “You can touch Me. Grab My feet.” Why did He do
    that? Oh, men and women, this is one of the most beautiful
    things. In the Old Testament, at the tabernacle, the Jewish
    high priest would take the sacrifice into the Holy of
    Holies. And the people would wait outside, because they knew
    if God did not accept their sacrifice, the priest would be
    struck dead. They would wait for the high priest to come back. And
    when the high priest walked back out, everybody shouted with
    joy! Because they said, “God has accepted our sacrifice”
    Jesus said, “Don’t touch Me … I’ve not ascended to the
    Father.” Jesus, between that time and when the others
    grabbed hold of Him and touched Him, ascended to God the
    Father, presented Himself as a sacrifice, and, ladies and
    gentlemen, if Jesus had not come back, if He had not
    permitted the others to touch Him, it would have meant His
    sacrifice had not been accepted. But I thank God He came
    back and said, “Touch Me”. It’s been accepted. As for the spiritual physical body of Jesus Christ, I
    think, Mr. Deedat, you need to first study our Scriptures. I
    think you need to read just as I did to study your
    scriptures. You need to read I Corinthians 15:44, 51. The
    explanation of the glorified, imperishable body. It was a
    spiritual body, and yet, it had substance. He could walk
    through a door; He could appear in their presence. He didn’t
    need food, but He took food. Otherwise, they would have
    said, “You’re merely a spirit.” No, He had what the Bible
    called the resurrected, glorified, incorruptible body. And
    if I were in that room and I knew I’d seen Him crucified,
    buried and everything else, and all of a sudden, with the
    doors locked, He appeared in the midst of the group, I think
    I’d be a little frightened, too. Men and women, Jesus Christ
    is raised from the dead! Thank you.

REBUTTALS

# Ahmed Deedat

Mr. Chairman, and ladies and gentlemen of the jury. The
crux of the problem – the clear-cut statement by Jesus
Christ, is the mistake that the disciples were making in
thinking that He had come back from the dead. By assuring
them that “a spirit has no flesh and bones, as you see Me
have.” This is King’s English, basic English. And one does
not need a dictionary or a lawyer to explain to you what it
implies.

Throughout the length and breadth of the 27 books of the
New Testament, there is not a single statement made by Jesus
Christ that “I was dead, and I have come back from the
dead.” The Christian has been belaboring the word
resurrection. Again and again, by repetition, it is conveyed
that it is proving a fact. You keep on seeing the man, the
man’s eating food, as though He was resurrected. He appears
in the upper room – He was resurrected. Jesus Christ never
uttered that word that “I have come back from the dead,” in
the 27 books of the New Testament, not once.

He was there with them for 40 days. And He never uttered
that statement. He is proving again and again that He was
that same Jesus, the one who had escaped death, so to say,
by the skin of His teeth. Because He was ever in disguise.
He never showed Himself openly to the Jews. He had given
them a sign. “No sign shall be given unto it except the sign
of Jonah.” No sign, but this. And He never went back to them
to the temple of Jerusalem, to tell them, “Here I am.” Not
once. He was ever in hiding. Now, we will not belabor the
things that have passed.

The points were, that Jesus was not reluctant to die. He
had actually come for this purpose. Now, my reading of the
Scriptures tells me that not only was He reluctant, but He
was preparing for a show-down with the Jews. You see, at the
last Supper, He raises the problem of de- fense, telling His
disciples, “As you remember, when I sent you out on your
mission of preaching and healing, I told you that you were
not to carry anything with you. No purse, no sticks. No
staff. Did you lack anything?”

And they said “No, we lacked nothing.” But now, I tell
you, He tells them, “Those of you who have no swords must
sell their garments and buy them.” You must sell your
garments and buy swords. I’m asking you, what do you do with
swords? You peel apples? Or you cut people’s throats? What
do you do with swords? So one of them said, “Master, we have
two already.” And He said, “That is enough.”

And He takes His disciples – 11 of them. Judas had
already gone to betray Him. Eleven disciples and Himself,
and they walk to Gethsemane. And at Gethsemane – read the
book, read your gospels – and it’ll tell you that Jesus put
eight men at the gate. I’m asking you, why should He go to
Gethsemane in the first place? And why put eight at the
gate, telling them, “Tarry ye here, and watch with Me.”

He means, stop here, and keep guard. Guarding what? What
was there to guard in Gethsemane? A courtyard, olive press,
empty place. What were they, the disciples, to guard five
miles out of town at Gethsemane? Then He takes with Him,
Peter, and the two sons of Zebedee. At least two of them had
swords. And He makes an inner line of defense and He tells
them, “Tarry ye here, sit ye here, and watch with Me. While
I go and pray yonder… I alone go and pray beyond.” I’m
asking you, why did He go to Gethsemane? Why did He go there

• to pray? Couldn’t He have prayed in that upper room, while
  there at the Last Supper? Couldn’t He have gone to the
  temple of Jerusalem, a stone’s throw from where they were?
  Why go five miles out of town? And why put eight at the
  gate? And why make an inner line of defense? And He goes a little farther, and falls on His face, and
  He prays to God. “Oh, my Father … if it be possible, let
  this cup pass from Me.” Meaning, remove the difficulty from
  Me, but not as I will, but as Thou wilt. In the end, I leave
  it to You. But I want You to save Me. And, being in agony,
  He prayed more earnestly, and His sweat was as if it were
  great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Is this how
  one man, a person goes to commit suicide? Is this how the
  person who is ordained from the foundation of the earth, for
  the sacrifice, is this how He behaves, I ask you? That He is sweating, it says, being in an agony, He
  prays more earnestly, and His sweat was as if it were great
  drops of blood falling down to the ground. And the Lord of
  Mercy sends His angel, says the Bible. An angel came to
  strengthen Him. I say, in what? In the belief that God was
  going to save Him. What does the angel come to strengthen
  Him in? To save Him. And in everything that happened from
  there onward, you can see God planning His rescue. Look. The
  fact was that the pro- phecy He had made was that He would
  be like Jonah – and we are told that He was unlike Jonah. He
  didn’t fulfill. Jonah is alive, Jesus is dead. Then, Pontius Pilate – he marveled when he was told that
  Jesus was dead because in his knowledge, he knew no man can
  die within three hours on the cross. Because this
  crucifixion was to be a slow, linger- ing death. This was
  the real purpose of crucifixion. It was not getting rid of
  an anti-social character, like a firing squad, or hanging,
  or impaling a person. It was a slow, lingering death. And the bones were not broken – says the Bible. It was a
  fulfillment of prophecy. Now, the bones of an individual –
  of a dead person – whether you break them or not, is of the
  least consequence. If the bones were not broken, the only
  time it can help anybody, is if the person was alive. So you
  see, for 2,000 years now, it’s a programming, a continuous
  programming. And Paul has put the whole gamut of religion on
  one point: on this death and resurrection, because he tells
  us, I Corinthians, chapter 15, verse 14, that “if Christ is
  not risen from the dead, our preaching is in vain: our faith
  is in vain.” Useless! You haven’t got a thing! So now, like drowning men clutching at straws, the
  Christian must, by hook or by crook, prove that somehow
  crucifixion killed the man, so we can earn salvation. Now,
  we would like you, Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen of the
  jury, to read this book once more, and the testimony, word
  for word. If you examine the prophecies – what Jesus says.
  and the way He behaves – they are conclusive proof that
  Christ had not been crucified .

# Josh McDowell

I’m not sure that I heard, but did you say, “Nowhere in
the 27 books of the New Testament did Jesus ever say He was
‘dead and now alive'”? May I read to you from the book of
Revelation, chapter 1, verse 18? He said, “I am the living
one. I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore.” Also,
Mr. Deedat, He appeared to the Jews. The whole New Testament
Church was started with Jews. He appeared to the Jewish
anta- gonist, the apostle Paul, when he was Saul of Tarsus.

But men and women, the greatest thrill to me, when it
comes to the resurrection and Christ as my Life and Savior,
is that God Yahweh has promised, when a man enters into that
relationship through asking Christ to forgive him, who died
for our sins, was buried and raised again on the third day,
that God, the Holy Spirit, enters that person and changes
them. And one of the greatest evidences is my own life.
After I came to the point where I acknowledged Jesus Christ
as my Savior and Lord, surrendered my will up to Him, and
trusted Him, men and women, in about six months to a year,
or a year and a half, the major areas of my life were
changed.

First, I developed a desire to live a holy and godly
life. Second, I started to experience a peace and genuine
joy – it wasn’t because I don’t have conflict – it’s in
spite of conflict, the peace that God gives through Jesus
Christ. Third, I gained control over my temper. I almost
killed a young man my first year in a university. I was con-
stantly losing my temper. After I trusted Jesus as Savior
and Lord, I would catch myself arising to the crisis of
losing my temper, and it was gone!

Not only my friends noticed it, but my enemies did a lot
sooner. And only once now, in 22 years that I have had a
personal relationship with God Yahweh, the Father, through
His Eternal Word, the Son, only once have I lost my temper.
He has given me a supernatural strength over it.

The greatest area, men and women, that I’m thankful I
can share here, is the very love of God. In this sense: My
father was the town alcoholic. I hardly ever knew my father
when he was not drunk. My friends in school would make jokes
about my father making a fool of himself. I lived on a farm
and I’d go out to the barn and see my mother lying in the
gutter in the manure – the bathroom of the cows – beaten so
badly by my father, my mother couldn’t get up and walk.

We would have friends over. I’d take my father, tie him
up in the bam, and park the car up around the side, and tell
my friends he had to go on an important business trip, so I
wouldn’t be embarrassed. I’d take him into the bam where the
cows would have their little calves. I’d put his arms
through the boards, and tie them. I’d put a rope around his
neck and pull his head all the way over the backboard, and
tie it around the feet, so if he shuffled his feet, he would
kill himself.

One evening, two months before I graduated from high
school, I came home from a date. When I went into the house,
I heard my mother crying profusely. And I said, “What’s
wrong?” She said, “Your father has broken my heart. And all
I want to do is live until you graduate, then I just want to
die.”

Do you know, two months later, I graduated. And the next
Friday, the 13th, my mother died. Don’t tell me that you
can’t die of a broken heart. My mother did, and my father
broke it. There was no one I could have hated more. But men
and women, when I came into this relationship with God
Yahweh, through His Eternal Son, the Lord Jesus Christ,
after a short period of time, the love of God took control
of my life, and He took that hatred and turned it upside
down.

So much so, I was able to look my father square in the
eyes and say: “Dad, I love you.” And the neatest thing is, I
really meant it! I transferred to another varsity or
university. I was in a serious car accident with my legs,
arm and neck in traction. I was taken home. My father came
into my room. He was very sober because he thought I was
almost dead. He asked me this question: “How can you love a
father such as I?” I said, “Dad, six months ago, I despised
you. I hated you.” Then I shared with him how I’d come to
the conclusion seen so clearly, that God Yahweh, the Father,
had manifested Himself to us, humanity through the Eternal
Word, His Son. And then He had died for our sins, that’s the
anguish He went through, Mr. Deedat.

If you could imagine all the sins in the world – just
your sins and my sins would be enough. But all the sins in
the world are upon the Son. The anguish that was involved.
And I said, “Dad, I asked Christ to forgive me. I asked Him
to come into my life as Savior and Lord.” I said, “Dad, as
the result of that, I have found the capacity to love and
accept not only you, but other people just the way they
are.”

I can look at you, Mr. Deedat, and say, “I honestly love
you … God has given me a love for you … I love you so
much, I would love to have you come to know Jesus Christ as
Savior and Lord.” And my father finally just said, “Son, if
your God can do in my life what I have seen Him do in your
life, then I want to know Him personally.”

Right there, my father just prayed something like this:
“God, if You’re God, and Christ is the Eternal Word, Your
Son, if You can forgive me and come into my life and change
me, then I want to know You personally.”

Men and women, my life was basically changed in six
months to a year, to a year and a half. And there are still
many areas for God to change. But then, take my father. His
life was changed right before my eyes. Mr. Deedat, it was
like somebody reached out and turned on a light bulb. Do you
know, he only touched whiskey once after that. He got it to
his lips, and that was it. He didn’t need it anymore.
Fourteen months later, he died. Because three-fourths of his
stomach had to be removed, as a result of 40-some years of
drinking. But do you know, ladies and gentlemen, in that
14-month period, scores of businessmen in my home town and
the surrounding area committed their lives to the living
God, through the Eternal Word, Jesus Christ, because of the
changed life of one of the town’s drunks.

My wife, Dottie, puts it this way. She says, “Honey,
because Christ was raised from the dead, He lives. And
because He lives, He has the infinite capacity through the
Holy Spirit to enter a man or woman’s life, and change them
from the inside out.” That is why the resur- rected, living
Christ said in one of the 27 books of the New Testament, “I
was dead, now I am alive.” He can say, “I stand at the door
of your life and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens
the door, I will come in.”

**** CLOSING STATEMENTS ***

# Ahmed Deedat

Mr. Chairman and ladies and gentlemen of the jury. Man
is coward by nature. From the beginning of Adam, you
remember, passing the buck. It’s not me, it’s the woman; and
the woman, it’s not me, it’s the serpent. Man is coward by
nature. And we want somebody else to carry the burden for
us. We want somebody else to take the medicine when we are
sick. We want somebody else’s appendix to be removed, when
ours is rotten. This is man in general.

But this is not what Jesus Christ said. He wanted you to
take up your own cross – get yourself crucified. Listen! He
says, “He is not of Me who does not take his cross and
follow Me.” Take up your cross and follow Me. In other
words. Get yourself crucified. No, no, no. No, He didn’t
mean that. What He meant was, that as I carry My
responsibility, you carry yours. As I pray, you pray. As I
fast. you fast: as I’m circumcised, you be circumcised, what
I do, you do. You carry your own responsibility.

This is what He meant. Now, that is the Islamic system!
This is what Islam teaches. You see, the system that saves
you after years of alcoholism, after years of pinching 10
cents from the collection plate, you read it here, in Josh’s
book, He says every Sunday, the only thing he got out of
church was he was putting in 25 cents and taking out 35 for
milk-shakes. And then, later on in life, if you study, we
find the same thing is being done on a very high level of
intellectualism, But we haven’t got the time to go into
that.

Let me end with the message of Jesus: He says, “Verily,
verily, I say unto you, except your righteousness exceed the
righteousness of the scribes and the pharisees, you shall by
no means enter the kingdom of heaven.” There’s no heaven for
you. This is what He says; these are His words. And what is
happening is, you are not contradicting His words. This is
Islam! Unless you are better than the Jews, there is no
heaven for you.

He didn’t say it’s the blood, but your righteousness,
You must be better than the Jews, You must fast, as the Jews
fasted, but on a higher level: you must pray, as the Jews
prayed, but on a higher level, you must give charity, as the
Jews gave charity, but on a higher level. And that is Islam.

So, Mr, Chairman, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I
say that this resurrection, as has been addressed by Josh in
America, under the heading, “Hoax or History,” I will
conclude that here are one thousand million people being
taken for a ride on a cross. In Durban, every week, we have
horses taking thousands of people for a ride – every horse.
But here, you are being taken for a ride on the cross.

Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen.

# Josh McDowell

Mr, Deedat, nowhere in the Christian Bible revealed by
God is a Christian ever commanded to be crucified. We are
told to acknowledge that we are already crucified in Jesus
Christ.

In Romans 8:32, God, speaking from eternity into time,
says, “He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him
up … up for us all.” In my country, a young lady, who was
picked up for speeding, was brought before the judge, The
judge said, “Guilty or not guilty?” and she said, “Guilty.”
He brought down the gavel, and the judge fined her $100 or
10 days. Then, an amazing thing took place. The judge stood
up, took off his robe, placed it over the back of the chair,
went down in front, and paid the fine. He was a just judge.
His daughter had broken the law.

No matter how much he loved his daughter, he had to say
$100 or 10 days. But he loved her enough, he was willing to
go down, and take the penalty upon himself, and pay it. This
is a clear illustration of what God Yahweh has revealed
through His Holy Word. God loves us. Christ died for us. The
Bible very clearly points out the wages of sin is death. So,
God had to bring down the gavel.

But, men and women, He loved us so much, He was able to
set aside His judicial robe, and come down in the form of
the man Jesus Christ. And go to the cross and pay the price
for us. And now, He can say, “I stand at the door of your
life and knock. And if anyone hears My voice, and opens the
door, I will come in.”

Yes, Mr. Deedat, one billion Christians are riding on
the cross. We are being taken for a ride. I believe God has
provided the cross as the chariot to heaven, through the
shed blood of His divine Son.

Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen, for giving me
the privilege, as a person from another country, to come
here, and Mr. Deedat, I am greatly indebted to you for this
opportunity. And if you come to my country, we’ll have
dinner together. Thank you.

============================================================

END OF THE DEBATE

YouTube Video of Debate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAVea4EbMp4